I don't get the place of Christ in LDS theology.
Were there other Christs on different worlds?
Was Heavenly Father a christ in his human life?
Will you be a Christ one day in your universe?
B-
Much of LDS afterlife speculation comes from Lorenzo Snow's couplet that says: "As man is now, God once was; as God is now man may be."
That couplet was most likely influenced by the King Follett discourse by Joseph Smith in which many in depth ideas are presented regarding the afterlife and our potential as children of God.
Neither the couplet or the King Follett discourse are accepted doctrine from the church. That's not to say that they are not true or partly true but nonetheless, not doctrine.
The following teachings and scriptures are what I know to be doctrine:
Acts 17:29, "Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device."
Romans 8:16-17, "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together."
Revelation 21:7, "He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son."
Psalms 82:6, "I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High."
Jesus later quoted Psalms 82:6 to an angry crowd in John 10:31-36. It reads:
"Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?"
Boyd K. Packer gave a talk in 1984 titled, The Pattern of Our Parentage.
Below are several quotes from this talk:
"There are many other verses of scripture, at least an equal number in the Bible, that speak in plural terms of “lords” and “gods.” The first chapter of Genesis states: “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.” (Gen. 1:26; italics added.) Such references are found from Genesis to Revelation. (See Rev. 1:6.) The strongest one was given by Christ Himself when He quoted that very clear verse from the Eighty-second Psalm: “Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? [See Ps. 82:6.] “If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; “Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?” (John 10:34–36; italics added.) The acceptance of this truth does not mean accepting the multiple gods of mythology nor the polytheism of the pagans, which was so roundly condemned by Isaiah and the other prophets. There is one God, the Father of all. This we accept as fundamental doctrine. There is only one Redeemer, Mediator, Savior. This we know. There is one Holy Ghost, a personage of spirit, who completes the Godhead. I have emphasized the word one, in each sentence, but I have used it three times. Three is plural. Paul used the plural many and the singular one in the same verse: “For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) “But to us there is but one God, the Father.” (1 Cor. 8:5–6.) Anyone who believes and teaches of God the Father, and accepts the divinity of Christ, and of the Holy Ghost, teaches a plurality of Gods."
"The Father is the one true God. This thing is certain: no one will ever ascend above Him; no one will ever replace Him. Nor will anything ever change the relationship that we, His literal offspring, have with Him. He is Eloheim, the Father. He is God. Of Him there is only one. We revere our Father and our God; we worship Him. There is only one Christ, one Redeemer. We accept the divinity of the Only Begotten Son of God in the flesh. We accept the promise that we may become joint heirs with Him."
OK so let me sum this up in my own words. I believe that to be a joint-heir with Christ is to receive ALL things from God. However, I feel that many LDS members have assumed incorrectly believing that if we are to receive all from God, we must somehow take part in the same order that God has taken to create, and most importantly, save us. Members seem to forget that Christ's atonement plays a role in not just our salvation here on this earth, but in our eternal lives as well. The couplet previously mentioned may not be entirely true. I have found no where in LDS teachings and/or doctrine that says that God was once a man like myself. Additionally Christ can never be replicated. That is doctrine. The Atonement of Christ is all encompassing of the past, present, and future. He is the Savior for not only those on this earth, but all everywhere. Assuming that I were to one day have all that my Father has, and to believe the Atonement how I know it to be taught, means that Christ is the Savior of all that I could one day create as well. Remember that this last concept is speculation on my part from what many consider a very limited knowledge of church teachings.
The same Christ that extends his hand to me now is who I believe will offer his hand to those I might take part in creating. I do not feel that my Heavenly Father is somehow diminished by the glorification of His children. I also do not believe that I must come from the same past as my God to one day receive all that He desires to bestow upon me. Furthermore, I do not feel that it is necessary for whatever I take part in creating, in the life to come, to share my same mortal history. I look forward to further study and prayer as I seek to find the answers to my still many questions.
Thank you for stirring up many thoughts that have been at the brink of written words but had not yet received enough opposition for growth to be born. While thinking about this, I came up with a few questions for you as well. They are:
1. What in Catholic doctrine keeps you from believing that you could "inherit all things" as stated in Revelation?
2. Is it impossible within your doctrine to be "offspring of God" as stated in Acts?
3. If you believe in the biblical account of Jesus' baptism where God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit take on three forms, is it impossible to believe that someone could see God the Father and Jesus in a vision separate from one another?
It feels good to do this again. I look forward to your response.
Your Brother,
A
Much of LDS afterlife speculation comes from Lorenzo Snow's couplet that says: "As man is now, God once was; as God is now man may be."
That couplet was most likely influenced by the King Follett discourse by Joseph Smith in which many in depth ideas are presented regarding the afterlife and our potential as children of God.
Neither the couplet or the King Follett discourse are accepted doctrine from the church. That's not to say that they are not true or partly true but nonetheless, not doctrine.
The following teachings and scriptures are what I know to be doctrine:
Acts 17:29, "Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device."
Romans 8:16-17, "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together."
Revelation 21:7, "He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son."
Psalms 82:6, "I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High."
Jesus later quoted Psalms 82:6 to an angry crowd in John 10:31-36. It reads:
"Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?"
Boyd K. Packer gave a talk in 1984 titled, The Pattern of Our Parentage.
Below are several quotes from this talk:
"There are many other verses of scripture, at least an equal number in the Bible, that speak in plural terms of “lords” and “gods.” The first chapter of Genesis states: “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.” (Gen. 1:26; italics added.) Such references are found from Genesis to Revelation. (See Rev. 1:6.) The strongest one was given by Christ Himself when He quoted that very clear verse from the Eighty-second Psalm: “Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? [See Ps. 82:6.] “If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; “Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?” (John 10:34–36; italics added.) The acceptance of this truth does not mean accepting the multiple gods of mythology nor the polytheism of the pagans, which was so roundly condemned by Isaiah and the other prophets. There is one God, the Father of all. This we accept as fundamental doctrine. There is only one Redeemer, Mediator, Savior. This we know. There is one Holy Ghost, a personage of spirit, who completes the Godhead. I have emphasized the word one, in each sentence, but I have used it three times. Three is plural. Paul used the plural many and the singular one in the same verse: “For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) “But to us there is but one God, the Father.” (1 Cor. 8:5–6.) Anyone who believes and teaches of God the Father, and accepts the divinity of Christ, and of the Holy Ghost, teaches a plurality of Gods."
"The Father is the one true God. This thing is certain: no one will ever ascend above Him; no one will ever replace Him. Nor will anything ever change the relationship that we, His literal offspring, have with Him. He is Eloheim, the Father. He is God. Of Him there is only one. We revere our Father and our God; we worship Him. There is only one Christ, one Redeemer. We accept the divinity of the Only Begotten Son of God in the flesh. We accept the promise that we may become joint heirs with Him."
OK so let me sum this up in my own words. I believe that to be a joint-heir with Christ is to receive ALL things from God. However, I feel that many LDS members have assumed incorrectly believing that if we are to receive all from God, we must somehow take part in the same order that God has taken to create, and most importantly, save us. Members seem to forget that Christ's atonement plays a role in not just our salvation here on this earth, but in our eternal lives as well. The couplet previously mentioned may not be entirely true. I have found no where in LDS teachings and/or doctrine that says that God was once a man like myself. Additionally Christ can never be replicated. That is doctrine. The Atonement of Christ is all encompassing of the past, present, and future. He is the Savior for not only those on this earth, but all everywhere. Assuming that I were to one day have all that my Father has, and to believe the Atonement how I know it to be taught, means that Christ is the Savior of all that I could one day create as well. Remember that this last concept is speculation on my part from what many consider a very limited knowledge of church teachings.
The same Christ that extends his hand to me now is who I believe will offer his hand to those I might take part in creating. I do not feel that my Heavenly Father is somehow diminished by the glorification of His children. I also do not believe that I must come from the same past as my God to one day receive all that He desires to bestow upon me. Furthermore, I do not feel that it is necessary for whatever I take part in creating, in the life to come, to share my same mortal history. I look forward to further study and prayer as I seek to find the answers to my still many questions.
Thank you for stirring up many thoughts that have been at the brink of written words but had not yet received enough opposition for growth to be born. While thinking about this, I came up with a few questions for you as well. They are:
1. What in Catholic doctrine keeps you from believing that you could "inherit all things" as stated in Revelation?
2. Is it impossible within your doctrine to be "offspring of God" as stated in Acts?
3. If you believe in the biblical account of Jesus' baptism where God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit take on three forms, is it impossible to believe that someone could see God the Father and Jesus in a vision separate from one another?
It feels good to do this again. I look forward to your response.
Your Brother,
A
A
well now i'm all confused.
most of what you said sound more or less like Catholicism.
B
To what degree of exhaltation do you believe in?
Am I right that Catholicism does not teach the potential for Godhood?
Or is it that you simply don't become like God because you do not originate from Him but still take part in some level of creation?
Is the highest "level" of exhaltation or glorification being an angel in God's presence?
A
A
we don't become angels, they are a different species.
we are filled with the Holy SPIRIT, with the BODY of Christ, more and more, infinitely more, forever ... yet never reaching the infinity that God the Father already is/has. in other words, God the Father gives us all that he has (the Spirit and the Son) and yet, even when we have ALL, he still has MORE, and gives us that, repeating forever. Key ideas that point to this: Baptism, Eucharist, Confirmation.
creation: we await the New Heavens and New Earth, which will be made OUT OF and WITH us, with our ecstatic approval. in other words, we will be the instruments of that new creation, the many words ("small white stone w/ new name") which God the Father will use to call that New Creation into existence. Thus the new creation, in some sense, can be said to be made BY us, in somewhat the same way that God the Father created this universe BY his Word, his Son.
main issue in trying to deal with mormon theology: there seem to be two massively conflicting ideologies or tendencies: one I call the Joseph Smith tendency, which is summarized in the King Follet discourse etc and approaches an almost genius level of imaginativeness-- it is that stream of thought with which i am fascinated on an anthropological level. while i do not think that it is true, i will say that it may very well be the greatest work of the art to come forth from the anglo-american mind. The other stream is what I call "cross-eyed Protestantism", this is the stream which bores me to tears and makes me laugh, just a confused mishmash of American Protestant "earnestness" , really REALLY poorly-thought-out theology, intellectual dishonesty and straight-up BS. Frankly, LDS seems to be veering in that much more boring direction and has been for some time now.
B
